December talking meme - Day 1

[amberdreams]

There’s nothing like starting a meme with a really knotty problem question, hey? chomaisky wanted to know where I think Sam and Dean’s relationship will go next.

So.

Keeping my feet on the ground, I’ll go with Canon speculation.

Based on what they’ve given us so far this season, the brothers’ relationship seems to be in a relatively good place for a change. Sam is keeping a watchful eye on Dean but otherwise seems to be completely unfazed by the fact that Demon!Dean tried to ventilate his skull with a claw hammer. Dean is treating Sam like his little brother of old, but with undertones of fatalism which is worrisome. But where would we be without worrying about one or the other Winchester. Or both?

So where do they go from here in terms of relationship (and not in terms of plot)?

I know what I want to see. What I’d like is Sam taking charge. I feel Sam has been largely absent for too long, and even a die-hard Dean!Girl like me misses him. I want Sam being clever, authoritative, assertive. I want him to matter, to be more than an accessory that gets thrown around each week and that Dean has to fret about.  Sam should be his own person again, and have his own story, and that story can focus on Dean if they want. That’s fine by me.

I want him to save Dean, not only from the Mark and whatever its consequences might be, but from the pit of despair that boy is liable to plunge into if left to his own self-depreciating devices. I want them to end the season with the Winchesters in a good place with each other; able to say they love each other and that it’s fucked up, but right for them. They are actually not far away from this at the moment – Dean as good as told Sam that he knows Sam loves him, when he was telling Cole how much he understood Cole’s plight.

So I don’t think it’s too much to ask for a few more Impala scenes where they talk to each other about that is going on and not just the next case. It doesn’t have to be pages of dialogue, that wouldn’t feel right as these boys just don’t behave that way, but having them sharing a few beers, getting the green cooler out and maybe sitting on the bonnet watching the stars, that isn’t beyond the stretch of imagination. Oh, and definitely more teasing broments. I could live with a lot more of those humorous moments that characterised earlier seasons.  Preferably not written by those asinine nine year old boy writers who always seem to turn all the characters into utter pricks, especially Dean.

This season the show is giving us hope that we might see their relationship settle down like this, I think. There is a feeling of maturity about them now - which is a bloody good thing, given that they are getting on a bit and should be more settled in themselves by now!

What do you think?

Comments

[yohkobennington.livejournal.com]

All of this. All of it!

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

Yissssss!

[ash48.livejournal.com]

I feel Sam has been largely absent for too long, and even a die-hard Dean!Girl like me misses him.

So you can imagine what it feels like for a Sam!girl! Whaaaaaa…. :((

Sam is keeping a watchful eye on Dean but otherwise seems to be completely unfazed by the fact that Demon!Dean tried to ventilate his skull with a claw hammer.

It's quite something that Sam has not held one iota of a grudge against Dean for anything he did or said as a demon. I would hope this is because he is an expect on having his body do something his brain doesn't want. He knows the real depths Dean goes to do the right thing. He knows what it means to mess up, even when he's trying to do the right thing. This is the what Sam's experience amounts to. Crazy respect for that.

So yeah, word on everything you said.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

It's something that proves real fans are Bi-Bro. *wink*

[tifaching.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes, please. All of this, especially the 'let us have Sam back' part.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

*fist bump*

[duckondebut.livejournal.com]

Ahaha. As a diehard Sam!girl, I don't believe we've seen Sam this present, this assertive, for a very long time? Show's been exploring an interesting dichotomy between the Sam that Dean wants and the Sam that Dean needs from practically the very first season, and in a way, it seems like fandom is reflecting Dean's struggles with that. Over the last six years, Sam has undergone some fairly superhuman stuff; he's been literally broken down into his components for all of us to see. His Year Off was a major revelation to him that life could still be lived outside of hunting; he plunged to the depths with the Trials and with the Gadreel possession, but still came out the other side with a fresh perspective on their lives, the need to set boundaries and still look after his brother. He held onto Mark!Dean for as long and hard as he could, until Dean knocked him out and got himself killed. He came back from that to search for Dean by himself, participate in a hunter's network (possibly even help set it up), and literally singlehandedly cured Dean of demonism. Sam has just given his all and more to keep this brotherhood running. So, yes--I do think Sam has had a major role to play in the last three seasons, and it's a pity that even after everything, he is expected to give more to care for his brother. Sam is definitely his own person, but as we saw in s8, that's precisely what Dean doesn't want, so Sam has managed a tentative compromise. What more can he do without completely subsuming his oft-violated identity in the SamnDean ~brotherly bond~?

As for Dean--you're right; his self-image is toxic to both himself and Sam. The MoC and demon storyline is brilliant because Dean has seen himself behave in ways that he can no longer deny or lie to himself about. Dean has extremely low self-worth combined with impossibly high standards for those he loves--therefore, like in 9.10, he can berate himself for "being poison" without taking responsibility for the things he should be sorry for. I can see that changing in him slowly--and it's this change in Dean, I think, that will bring SamnDean to some semblance of a healthy relationship.

Or the perfect solution is just to open up the Bunker to the hunter community in general--the enforced isolation is a major part of the problem.

... and whoops, sorry. Got carried away. :p

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

Oh cool, thanks for this - I need other people's views to turn mine around so I can see things more clearly. Mmm food for thought, certainly. I agree he seems more assertive this season so far, but I am concerned he also still seems very quiet, like he's suppressing himself. Maybe this is an aspect of what you describe here - that he's still trying to be what Dean needs and not himself? I need to think more thinky thoughts now!

[duckondebut.livejournal.com]

I think it's a combination of all that's happened to him, and also: a long history of Dean talking over/ignoring his opinions/experiences, berating him, gaslighting him (as with Gadreel last year), and finally refusing to acknowledge why Sam might have the ~audacity to feel hurt at such a massive violation to his personhood. There's also the matter of Dean possessing the mark of the first fratricidal killer in history, so it's understandable that he's ferreted in a little bit, walking a tightrope while balancing multiple things--appeasing his brother, protecting himself, and dealing with the dangers their daily lives throw their way.

I just--I want to push back against the idea that Sam must bear the burden of change, especially in a relationship where the power dynamics are so massively skewed, and have been for a very long time. :)

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

Ah well, my comments weren't about Sam changing as such, more the writers giving Sam more prominence, more stature - and more of a consistent story that didn't mean he was always having to be some other version of Sam (Gadreel!Sam, Lucifer!Sam, Soulless!Sam etc). Not that those versions weren't entertaining in their way but that was why I was asking for the 'real' Sam to come back. I like how you have rationalised it though, that makes so much sense - though I might disagree with having Dean painted quite so black! :D

[galwithglasses.livejournal.com]

Yes to all this and I love the gif. 8-)

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

\0/

[ephermeralk.livejournal.com]

*cough*

You had me at authoritative, assertive Sam.

yup.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

Mmmm Jared plays that Sam so well... *melts*

[tifaching.livejournal.com]

LOL. Yup.

[anactoria.livejournal.com]

This season the show is giving us hope that we might see their relationship settle down like this, I think. There is a feeling of maturity about them now - which is a bloody good thing, given that they are getting on a bit and should be more settled in themselves by now!

I agree, and I hope we do get some of this. The feeling I get from Sam at the moment is that he's waiting for the other shoe to drop, but in a fairly restrained, patient kind of a way. Like, his quiet little, "okay" at the end of 10.06 when Dean insisted he was fine. It sort of felt like, 'okay, I understand and accept that you're full of shit, and it's more important to me to save you than fight about it, so I'm just going to let it go.'

I don't really want to overstate this, because I don't think it's anything particularly defined or explicit on the show, but with the demonic teenage rebellion and the way he was acting out a cartoon version of his normal self at the start of 10.07, I almost get the feeling that at this point, Dean's the kid in the relationship and Sam's the parent. Not in the overprotective way Dean's always played that role, but in the sense of being there and ready to pick up the pieces. And I feel as though that's changed without Dean realising it, and he might be surprised when he does find himself in need of saving again.

That'll probably be completely contradicted by this time tomorrow, of course, because since when did Show do what we expect it to? ;)

[runedgirl.livejournal.com]

Ooh,I like this! Here's hoping :)

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

Nice insight, this makes so much sense...

[chomaisky.livejournal.com]

Thank you, Amber, for answering this difficult question! <333
I haven't drawn anything episode related for a very long time, because Sam's acting way too calm for a human being, almost surreal. I love duckondebut's interpretation of Sam's quietness as being assertive. But I'm still dying to get a little peek of what's inside his head (which is made of steel for sure XD) It always amazes me how Sam can withhold so much pain. Dean's in pain, for sure, and is struggling with his low self-esteem and his past sins. But it must be killing Sam, too, to suppress his own fears and act like he's not been hurt from angel possession and Dean's mark and demonhood. In the past when we get a Sam's POV, it's usually when Sam stopped taking orders from Dean and spoke his mind about what he thought was wrong with Dean and took the road on his own. Sam's character shows most when he's in stark contrast with Dean. But now Sam obviously can't act like that. Knowing Dean, acting constant and being there for him probably is the best way to protect Dean from his darker self. In the show, Sam's superhuman endurance does make him appear like the weaker character. Sometimes I think it'd be good if we got an episode where Sam messed up big time because he overestimated his ability of bouncing back every time and then we could have a glimpse of what he kept in himself (and of course lots of hurt!Sam XD).
I'd love to see what you said. Less drama and more happy boys.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

Yes yes, the more I think about Sam, the more I worry that he's bottling things up too much. However, having said that, he has been through so much, and must surely have come out stronger. Like you say - steel at his core. Steel is forged at high temperatures and comes out strong but flexible. If that is the way they go with him I will be VERY happy!

[havenseptember6.livejournal.com]

Yes! This is exactly what should happen! :) I love the idea of the boys roles becoming reversed with Sam taking more of a leading role. They've come so far since season 1, I think it's really important to see the change their experiences have caused in themselves and in their relationship. My (humble) opinion is that Dean plays the 'big brother' on the surface, while Sammy has stepped up to play that role for Dean in quiet, less obvious ways.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's very much what anactoria was saying, Sam being the parent now, taking over Dean's care-taking role. I hadn't thought of it like this before but everyone else's insights are opening my mind!

[runedgirl.livejournal.com]

What she said :)

[milly-gal.livejournal.com]

I feel Sam has been largely absent for too long, and even a die-hard Dean!Girl like me misses him.

I think this is what wasn't clicking for me for a long time. The show this year seems to have gotten itself back on an even footing, or at least a more steady one than years passed and that is largely, in my opinion to do with the brothers both *being* there.

Sam is keeping a watchful eye on Dean but otherwise seems to be completely unfazed by the fact that Demon!Dean tried to ventilate his skull with a claw hammer.

Not only is this true true true, but it made me lol! Because he really hasn't gotten on his high horse about it has he, he just let that one slide on by!

I loved this hun, thank you for sharing :)

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

Thank Cho for the question, it was a good un! :D

[milly-gal.livejournal.com]

*bows to Cho!* :)