Do we really live in a 'rape culture'?

[amberdreams]

Or just one that has been male dominated for far too long?

In defence of Jared and Jensen over the Bill Crosby joke, I've done some more digging now and from what I can see, there was a twitter storm involving a few vocal people, some of whom did have a point - i.e. it was in very bad taste, especially given the current furore over the widespread misuse of power and sexual abuse. But then it looks like some gossip-rag-type webpages got hold of it and fanned the flames - and that brought it to the attention of a wider audience, at which stage the Js were forced to make a statement. It looks like it was those hack pseudo-journalists who started the whole 'sack the Js' thing.

I've also watched the NOLA panel video again and there are two things I noticed. Firstly, Jared said he had a 'pick up line' but he didn't want to say it because it was offensive. He whispered it to Jensen who said no, don't go there. Then the girl asking the question and the audience pressured Jared until he caved and said the line. The second thing I noticed then was that Jensen added the Mr Crosby line - effectively compounding the offence. You know what I think? I reckon Jensen did that because he knew Jared's chloroform joke was going to get the reaction it did, and he wanted to deflect (or share) some of the inevitable flak that he knew would come their way. Because Jensen knows Jared finds it hard not to cave under pressure. Jared has a great need to be liked, Jensen is made of sterner stuff, is more self-contained.

I can understand that some people found the joke offensive bcause it was. But really, those people should look at the record of these two men before making snap judgements and labelling them as monsters, as if their throwaway words are as bad as the sleasebag abusers. These offended people should spend their energy on stopping the abusers, not screaming when innocent people make jokes about them. How about turning some of that energy on highlighting Donald Trump's disgusting treatment of women throughout his life. How about tackling the many, many men in positions of power who think it's okay to use their position to pressure women into submitting to their advances. How about putting pressure on the Catholic Church to stop covering up for it's clergy. The list if far too long.

Yes, it's important to point out the casual acceptance of sexual abuses in society as a whole, but vilifying these two men, whose record on treating women as people not objects is impeccable, is NOT the way to get society to change.

I can understand that to people who don't know J2, that reluctantly told joke seems like it could be the tip of an iceberg of misogeny, but fandom should know better. Jared and Jensen put themselves out there most weekends because they love us. They and the rest of the cast open up to fandom and share a lot of themselves. Yes, it's a public face we are getting, but it's also genuine. I'm sure they keep part of themselves back. It would be impossible (and stupid) for them to be completely open with a mass audience, but they share a lot - stories, annecdotes, the occasional political opinion, some of their life philosophy, and in Jared's case, a fair chunk of his vulnerabilities.

Fandom has witnessed this. Fandom has read interviews and articles in J2's own words; fandom has supported their charitable campaigns; fandom has been touched by Jared's openness and honesty about mental health and has subsequently benefited from his #AKF initiative; fandom has seen the testimony and friendships these two stars have formed with guest actors, directors, production crew; fandom has read the story of how Jensen supported a woman who suffered abuse (and how he didn't tell Jared because Jared would have been insensed by this). All this evidence - real, tangible, out there - should show fandom that telling a stupid joke does not suddenly turn these two men into people we can no longer trust or admire.

So I'll say it again. Louder. FANDOM SHOULD KNOW BETTER.

Back to my original question - do we live in a 'rape culture'? No, I don't think we do. We live in a world where 99% of societies are male dominated, and this has led to massive gender inequalities that we are still clawing our way out of. Here in the UK there may be a mini revolution happening right now, triggered by the #metoo groundswell. I hope we will follow this through. The key is respect. So I am all for encouraging men to be more like Jared and Jensen. From everything I've seen, these are two men who treat people with respect, regardless of gender, colour, orientation. Maybe we should start another campaign - #bemoreJ2!

Just adding a link to an interesting blog post - it's not as balanced a view as I think the writer thinks it is, but it is a refreshing change from most of the reactions I've seen.

Comments

[toratio.livejournal.com]

I had to go and look up the joke. It's in poor taste, and yeah, too soon, and bad timing, etc.

Honestly, though, it didn't utterly shock me, possibly because I like subversive, black and sometimes off-colour humour.

I also had to look up 'rape culture', and yeah, it probably falls under the 'trivialising rape' - but I don't know, I agree with you that it doesn't violate trust or admiration.

For me there are two different points - one is how much small things like this normalise 'rape culture' and the other is how these things pale in comparison to actual issues (Trump, the churches, etc). Maybe both of those are true? I don't know.

If anything comes out of this, maybe the Js and everyone else will have thoughts about what we find funny, and how we view the world. Maybe we could all sit down and see it as a learning experience.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

I think there are lessons to be learned - but the immaturity of most of the people reacting to everything these days is appalling. The opposite side is the group who then shout about the world being too "PC" - and that just leaves me swimming around in this morass of agro, wondering where the balance has gone.

[toratio.livejournal.com]

I agree with all that. There are mature ways of reacting to things. It could've been "dude, that joke is not cool" "oh, yeah, sorry", story over. But I read some of the comments on some of the news stories, and I can see why people think our fandom is fucking bonkers.

[fairyniamh]

I am going to be honest, I am tired of the PC movement, it has gone too far. Men say stupid shit, they always have and always will. IF it does not hurt someone (and I mean physically, not their damned feelings) and.or does not call for acts of violence, take Elsa's advice and let it go.

I watch Milo Yiannopoulos and laugh, because he is so not PC. (Do not watch him if you are easily triggered.)

It was bad timing, but there was nothing for them to apologize for. Now, excuse me I am going to go an watch George Carlin, who would happily trigger everyone with his comedy, if he were still alive.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

Yeah and the males aren't the only ones to say stupid stuff either. Sometimes the gangs of women seem to get caught up in some sort of holier than thou thing and forget stupidity is pretty universal.

[fairyniamh]

*nods* Stupidity is universal and even the brightest of people have moments that make you think, 'WTF'. No Gender/Race/Religion (or Non-religion) has the corner market on stupidity.

I am Holier than the split end on mt left knee. I am willing to listen to anything else, and possibly laugh at it, because sometimes it is unintentionally funny. (Shouldn't laugh when someone stubs their toe, but...)

[anactoria.livejournal.com]

Here in the UK there may be a mini revolution happening right now, triggered by the #metoo groundswell. I hope we will follow this through.

I hope you're right -- but I think that #metoo is pretty damning evidence that we do indeed live in a rape culture. The term was coined, after all, partly to counter the assumption that rape and abuse were rare crimes committed only by obvious sickos, and given what we're seeing at the moment, it absolutely still has a place.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's right to conflate sexist behaviour and harassment with rape. They might be two ends of the same spectrum, but they are a long way apart, and rarely meet. A man who wolf whistles a woman on the street isn't a rapist at heart. That's one reason I'd say this is NOT a rape culture we are living in. There's plenty wrong with our society, but rape isn't a normalised thing.

I'm not expressing myself very well, so I'll just leave it with the fact that casual sexism is now being talked about openly and likewise being condemned is a very good thing.

[anactoria.livejournal.com]

I'll just leave it with the fact that casual sexism is now being talked about openly and likewise being condemned is a very good thing.

Well, that's certainly true. :)

[siennavie.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's right to conflate sexist behaviour and harassment with rape. They might be two ends of the same spectrum, but they are a long way apart, and rarely meet.

This. Nuance is important to appropriately and accurately address issues. Understanding how things relate to each other - correlation vs causation, etc - is necessary, too. Otherwise, you end up with one-size-fits-all "solutions" that do not work and sometimes do more harm than good.

[fufaraw]

I agree with what you've said here. What fills me with "scales balancing" glee, though is that you misspelled Cosby *twice.* How the mighty have fallen, indeed.

I wouldn't be surprised if, between this and the sob stories the Js have asked Creation to help curb, they just either quit or severely limit the cons they do. Again, they're heading an effort that keeps names and faces current with the public and provides income for actors who may not quite make a living doing film acting, and we all know how responsible they feel for being the duo who insures their crew's livelihoods, and now the con tour cast, as well. But there comes a point. Jensen has the brewery, Jared his bar, they both have family and friends who would love to see them when they're not actually filming. This may be the turning point for them, because it's obvious a faction of the fans they've come to think of as 'family' aren't above throwing either or both of them under the bus.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

Ha ha that's funny - I actually wrote Cosby then thought oh no, it's Crosby. Doh.

As for the convention circuit, that is exactly what I fear...

[dizzojay.livejournal.com]

I think you and all the commenters hit the nail on the head here. The world is a male dominated society, and that's got to change - and is changing gradually - but somehow in doing so the pendulum seems to have swung too far the other way in certain sections of society, and not enough in others.

I want to live in a world where I can walk down the street at night and not feel vulnerable, or have to enlist a man to walk me home, but I sure as hell don't want to live in a world where men are frightened to open their mouth and say a single word in front of me.

But away from the bigger picture, the hate that is being directed at two totally undeserving men for one slip-up (and even that was cajoled out of them) is absolutely despicable.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

THIS!

[blythechild.livejournal.com]

I didn't know any of this happened, nor did I look up the joke (I can guess how bad it was). Jokes about rape always offend me, and if it's a friend or colleague who tells it, I'll say that to their faces. But the offense fades because these friends and colleagues are not summed up by a single joke. Everyone makes mistakes and occasionally steps in it.

I do believe that we live in a misogynistic culture ("rape culture" narrows the scope of the problem to sexual violence, which is only a part of it). The big problem I have with the current groundswell is that everyone is eager to jump on and blame. Blame won't defeat misogyny. Only open, honest dialog will, and no one wants to talk when everyone is looking to blame people.

Blame those who bully and victimize and rape - yes, absolutely. Charge them, make them pay for their crimes in court. But TALK about what is and isn't acceptable. Many of us are a party to perpetuating these beliefs (yeah, I'm looking at YOU, women of planet earth...).

No one should be throwing stones. We've got too much damned work to do.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

Exactly - there is so much energy being wasted on slamming into two blokes who made a tasteless joke when their record is pretty damn good, while the likes of Trump and hundreds of other serial abusers are swanning about getting away with it.

[hugemind.livejournal.com]

I'm a woman who has grown up in a male-dominated society that looks down on women and sometimes I find myself doing the same thing. At that point a conscious thought is needed to say, you know what, that's what society's taught me but it's not how things are. I feel the same thing happened with the joke: because of the way society is, Jared found the joke funny, but his conscious thought stopped it and said that it's offensive.

I can't believe how often the Internet rage squad ignores context and tone and everything else that contributes to how words are meant and instead of they take the words and exaggerate them and turn it into a righteous social media fury which usually goes too far and doesn't even change anything. It's completely ridiculous that people who can themselves fans target the boys who are good eggs for a joke stripped out of all surrounding context. They're just a group of bitter people who see a way to get back at another group of people by claiming social justice blah blah when they don't even care about actual social justice. Pointing out one bad joke is not where the energy to make the society a better place for all its people should go. The world is full of bad jokes, but bad jokes did not create the current society - they are just a manifestation of it. If you don't want leaves to fall on your yard, don't buy a rake but a saw.

I've been seeing the reactions of people on my twitter feed, but missed the biggest furore because I don't follow that many accounts and most that I follow have posted #IstandwithJ2. Did J2 really have to make a statement about this?

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

Pointing out one bad joke is not where the energy to make the society a better place for all its people should go. Yes yes yes!

And yes, sadly, their agents did issue statements on their behalf, I think because it went wider than twitter. I found a couple of articles on gossipy webpages which called them out. Really, it would have been more appropriate to have reacted that way about the Harvey Weinstein 'joke' made by Michael Gove on national radio - here's a member of the Government of a major(ish) nation comparing a grilling by an interviewer to being raped by a sleasebag. Now that is much more offensive AND far more significant an utterance in terms of demonstrating society's wrong attitudes than two obscure actors at a convention.

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

Our boys are such decent men, it is so not right for them to be slimed with the same vitriol that Cosby, Weinstein, etc deserve. But given that the tide is rising to start addressing just how ingrained the message that 'womens' bodies are fair game for men' is unconsciously accepted, that joke does need to be called out as inappropriate. And it could have been such a great teaching moment...that is what I feel sad about. If, instead of shaming them, someone would have pointed out to them why it was wrong now when it wouldn't have gotten noticed a year ago, and then a simple 'I'm sorry, I didn't think it through and I will from now on'--what an example that would have been for men to examine and own their unconscious attitudes!

But that's not going to happen now :(

Also--Jensen is getting a lot of hate for making a Cosby joke, but when I watched the video I saw something completely different--everyone knows that Cosby is a scumbag, right? I heard Jensen saying 'No, Mr. Cosby' as him indicating that pickup line would come from a scumbag and he was subtly trying to point out why it was offensive. Of course subtle doesn't work very well in fandom...

Did anyone else see it that way?

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

I think that's exactly what Jensen was doing. Jared had obviously told him the line, Jensen told him no, don't go there, but when the fans pushed Jared to say it, Jensen stepped in to give the line its context and show it was a dig at Cosby not a dig at the victims. And I think the audience got that, it was people outside the context who then chose to scream blue murder over something that was, after all, just an ill placed quip.

Why can't people put all that energy into the things that matter instead of wasting it on those who least deserve it.

[meus_venator]

I thought that too, that Jensen jumped in not only to deflect some of the 'future heat' from Jared, but also to help frame the joke as wrong and in OBVIOUS bad taste. I think in another life Jensen would have been a lawyer. Jared should listen to him more often : )

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

I skimmed the responses and I'm pretty much in agreement.

IMHO, what's happening here is a conflation of fandom warring (because you can pretty much bank on the major objectors being hard-core Misha/Cas girls), and a grand lack of nuance in Social Justice discourse. Like you said, Amb, one poorly-timed and foolish joke does not a rapist make. J2's respective reps have issued statements, assuring the world that they do not, in fact, condone abuse or sexual imposition in any fashion.

I don't know about us living in a "rape culture". There sure as hell have been a lot of incidents come to light lately, dang. Rape is a crime of oppression, humiliation and power, not sex. But we can't overreact to every sexist joke or we'll become so emotionally fried that by the time we need to get really upset about something major, we're burnt out. We just won't care. There are better and worse ways to wag a finger at those sexist jokes. Fandom, as per usual, did it worse.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

Fandom and the people who hate fandom - like zara_zee says below, a lot of the backlash has come from people who obviously hate SPN, SPN's actors, SPN's fandom. Or maybe they are just some of those people who make it their life's aim to spew bile on anything and everything. It must be so exhausting to be like that.

I didn't see who the fandom 'leading lights' were on Twitter who lashed out at the boys initially and who are backtracking now. Fecking idjits.

[zara-zee.livejournal.com]

I read one article about this whole furore on that 'onnotheydidnt' site, or whatever it's called. And my impression was that it was a total beat up. Yeah, bad joke, poor taste, not funny, too soon etc. But from the comments on that article a lot of the vitriol was being stirred up by people who seem to really hate the Js and SPN fandom. Like, comments that called the Js 'hacks' whose show should be cancelled, and which labelled fans as 'psychotic shut-ins.' Definitely sounded to me like someone with a personal axe to grind was doing their best to blow this up out of all proportion.
As to rape culture...I take that to mean a culture that creates the conditions in which rape both occurs and is forgiven far too often and far too easily. And I think that is currently the case with our culture. It's also a fairly sad state of affairs that a lot of the time the only thing that minimizes people's overt misogyny or overt racism or overt homophobia is the knowledge that society doesn't approve and may call them out for it. As soon as prejudiced people think they're not in a minority any more, their talk and their behaviour becomes more overt and prevalent. So people may knock 'pc culture', but to be honest I'm sure a lot of us would love to be able to stop pointing out that certain behaviour/language is sexist/racist/homophobic and therefore not kind -- but it sadly seems necessary if we want reduced cruelty in the world. Equally sadly there will always be nasty people who subvert 'call out culture' and make it into something cruel. I guess all we can really do is ensure we treat everyone with the kindness and respect due to our fellow humans...until someone proves they don't deserve it! :)

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

the only thing that minimizes people's overt misogyny or overt racism or overt homophobia is the knowledge that society doesn't approve and may call them out for it.

Sad but true. Civilisation is a thin veneer. You only have to look at the way that recent events have given the far right the courage to come out from under their stones and start parading their despicable views in public again. They play on fear but also use people's patriotism against them, stirring up antipathy and hate.

I suppose that's the measure of a point of view - if it does nothing but harm, spews bile and spreads discord, it must be wrong and should be opposed.

[milly-gal.livejournal.com]

I'm actually too tired of this shit to respond properly. This is a very well thought out post and I agree with it all, I just don't have the energy any more to deal with the bullshit that goes along with a fandom full of people all willing to point three fingers back at themselves and not realise the irony of this situation. We have ALL made some kind of inappropriate joke in our life times, ill advised and poorly thought out though they may be, and yet *hands* I'm THIS close to done you have no idea.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

Heh. I hear ya. I've spent the last 2-3 days on this and I've said everything I wanted to say. Of course if won't have any impact on the idiots so, yep. Stepping away from the crazy now and hoping that the Js won't let this sour their fandom relationship.

[deanshot1]

I agree with everything you said as well and with commenters below and I also hope that this does not dampen the relationship these two incredible, kind-hearted, men have with their real and true fans.

I stand with J2 as well.

[meus_venator]

Yes, the whole brouhaha is very sad and so unworthy of the boys. They are great guys, good father, good husbands, good examples for their sons. Lots of weird stuff comes up at cons and not hearing the whole conversation or not knowing the girl was in a Daphne outfit and that the original question pertained to an upcoming episode and that certain fringe elements are all too ready to jump on Jared, it's just all a bad mix.

Sure Jared should have steered clear of it, but they're tired, they fly all night, they jump on stage and answer weird, strange and often offputting questions on the fly. So if once in however many thousands of hours under the public eye they mess up a bit, well, they're human too. They don't need to be BBQ'd by Social Justice Warriors or opportunistic Sam haters.

I don't think we live in a rape culture, but I do have an interesting observation.
When Anthony Rapp came forward with his accusations about Kevin Spacy's sexual misconduct, no one asked Anthony if he was drunk, or what he was wearing, or why he was at Kevin's apartment or suggested he was asking for it. They just accepted it, without corroboration (which followed days later) and stripped him of awards, prizes, shows, everything... on one person's word.

Now imagine if it was a woman who came forward and accused Kevin.
I don't know if we have a rape culture but we have a pretty big lack of empathy for women's issues.

[amberdreams.livejournal.com]

That is very true - I haven't seen a single thing accusing Rapp of 'asking for it'...

[jj1564.livejournal.com]

I'm late reading this, bur agree with everything you say, especially about Jensen adding the Cosby bit to deflect away from Jared - "Because Jensen knows Jared finds it hard not to cave under pressure. Jared has a great need to be liked, Jensen is made of sterner stuff, is more self-contained." - he looks out for Jared just as Dean would for Sam and it's beautiful. But I think the joke was anti-Bill Cosby, not an offensive joke about rape and Fangasm puts it much better than I could in her recent post from the con...

But the second part made it into something else – instead of ‘oh hey wouldn’t that be a funny thing to do haha shoulder slap haha’, which no question, would have been so not funny – instead of that, I felt in the moment like the punch line “No, Mr. Cosby” made it more like social criticism. It’s the sort of joke all the late night comics made when Cosby was accused of doing similarly horrible things, with the criticism squarely focused on the alleged perpetrator and the action. Adding that phrase to their shared joke, I thought, made it a biting anti-rape commentary.

I'm afraid that after this they might decide the hassle isn't worth it, and cut down on the amount of cons, which would be a shame. They don't need to do so many cons - I'm sure they'd rather be with family and friends - but they do it for the fans.

And I so agree that FANDOM SHOULD KNOW BETTER.

#bemoreJ2